Talk:Berbers

Amazigh population

The population refers to speakers of Tamazight only and is therefore misleading. I'd say we either add that these are just native Tamazight speakers, or we look for better estimates that refer to the actual population. Lots of Imazighen don't speak their native languages anymore. Even if we say that only half of all Maghreb countries (Tuareg and Zenaga in Mali, Mauritania, Niger etc. EXCLUDED) have pred. Amazigh heritage (very conservative estimate given the fact that in countries like Morocco it's at around 80%), we arrive at more than 49 million people. It's widely known that the 38 million number refers to Amazighophones. Tarekelijas (talk) 07:28, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

"The population refers to speakers of Tamazight only" No it doesn't. Take another look at the sources.

"I'd say we either add that these are just native Tamazight speakers" That's WP:OR. Nowhere in these sources does it state that these are merely Berber-speaking populations. Skitash (talk) 10:20, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

he population refers to speakers of Tamazight only and is therefore misleading. I'd say we either add that these are just native Tamazight speakers, or we look for better estimates that refer to the actual population. Lots of Imazighen don't speak their native languages anymore. Even if we say that only half of all Maghreb countries (Tuareg and Zenaga in Mali, Mauritania, Niger etc 212.108.150.178 (talk) 15:05, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

response to this: Yes, you are indeed right. Most surveys conducted in Morocco, do not ask about your ethnic origin. If you speak Tamazight, it counts you as one, otherwise, it wouldnt. but for the general population, more people consider themselves Amazigh than what the wiki pages and surveys indicate. However, there is no source to confirm this 'yet,' so it should remain as it is until further proper surveys of the population are conducted. TahaKahi (talk) 08:49, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

English wikipedia but some terms are translated to Arabic ?

some terms in this page are translated to Arabic. Like:

 Berbers (Arabic: بربر)
 Amazigh(Arabic:أمازيغ)

Why translating ? And why translating to Arabic specifically? 102.159.247.23 (talk) 21:54, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

I wonder too 😂 37.167.145.166 (talk) 11:31, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

Why shouldn't they be? M.Bitton (talk) 12:08, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

Simple: the Amazighs are not Arabs. If you are going to do this, then why not apply the same standard to any ethnic population that is a minority (which is not even the case in Morocco)? I don’t like to speak much about this, but for any Amazigh person, it feels like they are always categorized as a secondary offshoot of Arabs, with whom they are not even related. If anything, it raises the question of why such things exist in the Amazigh wiki pages in English (specifically), which are, for some reason, tightly moderated by people who are particularly focused on Arabic nationalism. Nonetheless, Amazighs have their own language, history, and ancestry; they shouldn’t have a different language used to describe them when they have their own written language. TahaKahi (talk) 08:53, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

Use of Berber rather than Amazigh

Why is Wikipedia "writers" using colonialist nomenclature to refer to the Amazigh people? The Amazigh people find the term "Berber" insulting. The wider world needs to refer to Aboriginal people by their chosen labels rather than ones that were given to them by their oppressors. The term Berber is derogatory. 2001:56A:F548:400:D3BD:27F9:23A3:C04D (talk) 02:36, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

That's a baseless claim. In any case, this has been discussed and the term "oppressor" is highly inappropriate. M.Bitton (talk) 12:06, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

The name Berber derives from the Latin word for barbarian, first being used as "Barbar" or people of "Barbaria" to describe North Africans. The ancient Greeks reportedly called the these people Libyans, The Arabs picked it when they conquered North Africa and started using it to refer to the local Amazighs. TahaKahi (talk) 08:55, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

List of Berber people

I'm planning a complete overhaul of the article "List of Berber people", the main fault of the old version was its lack of sources, which will be fixed. I think it has a certain importance, given that Berber culture is not very well known. In addition, I'll be relying mainly on the French version of the article, on which I've been making changes for several months and which tends to improve it. Samso231 (talk) 19:24, 1 November 2024 (UTC)

Language inclusion

Hello! This is a continuation of a long-standing issue that has been brought up many times, but I wish to ensure it is addressed properly. The issue concerns the inclusion of Tamazight text in the right sidebar of the article, where Neo-Tifinagh script is missing. Additionally, there is the inclusion of Arabic text, which does not align with the approach used for other ethnic groups that also exist in Arabic-majority countries. TahaKahi (talk) 13:07, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

18 November 2024

@M.Bitton What exactly is this that you're doing on the page? the common name rule does not matter in this article, And what do you mean by the endonym being a 'Berberist' addition? You make no sense. This article needs an administrative decision at some point if we keep misinterpreting guidelines after the 100th argument over it. TahaKahi (talk) 23:35, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

this has been on the article for months that's not a valid to keep it. It's a baseless claim by some Berberists that was presented as a fact. The Berbers are not an ethnic group and when the different Berber ethnic groups refer to themselves, they refer to their specific ethnic group (Kabyle, Chaoui, Mzabi, Tergui, Rifi, Chelhi, etc). M.Bitton (talk) 23:52, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

They fall under a similar ethnic category, namely "Amazigh"/"Berber." You are entitled to a different opinion, but that is what is widely agreed upon. Please refrain from using labels like "Berberist," regardless of the tone you intend with it. Let’s focus on the larger issue: why have you rearranged words in the sidebars under the "COMMONNAME" guideline? Arabic is not even meant to be the focus of this article, yet you have made it the lead lang. TahaKahi (talk) 23:58, 18 November 2024 (UTC)

Arabic is not even meant to be the focus of this article that's your irrelevant opinion and the root cause of why you keep harassing me. M.Bitton (talk) 00:05, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

Can you please engage in the discussion without making the issue personal? You changed some of my edits and of others, and I am trying to have a conversation to reach a consensus. Let’s keep it civil. Also, please avoid using phrases like "your irrelevant opinion." Thank you. TahaKahi (talk) 00:07, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

RfC on Infobox languages.

Should the Infobox include Arabic with the ethnic languages, or follow examples like Assyrian people and Copts that exclude it? TahaKahi (talk) 22:12, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

Survey

• Include of course, given that the word Berber is Arabic. There are other reasons that aren't worth mentioning (the fact that it's an Arabic word should send this RfC to bed very quickly). I'm surprised that this is even questioned (using some irrelevant comparison). M.Bitton (talk) 22:26, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

  the Berber encyclopedia contradicts that the word Berber is of Arabic origin, it is a lexical borrowing from Arabic to Latin... which is quite obvious Monsieur Patillo (talk) 23:23, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

  The Berber encyclopedia is written in French, so stands to reason for it to arrive to that conclusion. M.Bitton (talk) 23:26, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

  Please do not give evasive personal opinions Wp:POV.

  It's an academic source, I don't see why attack it on the fact that it's in French. Monsieur Patillo (talk) 23:29, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

  Let me make it crystal clear for you: 1) Your claim is baseless (that French source is based entirely on Arabic sources). 2) Berber is an Arabic word (a fact that is easily attributed to a raft of RS). 3) This is the English Wikipedia. M.Bitton (talk) 23:31, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

  1) WP:NPOV Avoid stating opinions as facts. Avoid stating seriously contested assertions as facts. 2) English or French encyclopedia does not change the fact that the term is of Greco-Latin origin and of the same lexical root for both languages. This makes an academic source in French valid. Monsieur Patillo (talk) 23:38, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

  Utter nonsense. M.Bitton (talk) 23:39, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

  I suggest everyone moves on from this minor point. The etymology of "Berber", or "Amazigh" for that matter, is not really relevant; if they are used to refer to the people, that's all that's relevant. R Prazeres (talk) 00:19, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

• Include—Arabic is a major Berber/Amazigh language and has been for about a millennium. إيان (talk) 22:33, 19 November 2024 (UTC)
• Include Not speaking to any of the other issues that might come up about nomenclature, but I see no reason to remove the Arabic, especially per إيان's comment above. The script and language remain in use throughout North African society, including among Amazigh/Berber peoples. +Comment: The names might benefit from some minor re-organizing for visual clarity; e.g. maybe grouping the renditions of "imazighen" on the one hand and renditions of "berber" on the other. The form Imaziɣen, specifically, also looks like a pseudo-IPA transcription(?). If so, then it should be removed, or we could include relevant transliterations/romanizations throughout instead. R Prazeres (talk) 22:47, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

  Berberity (or its conscience) is carried by Berberophony according to Salem Chaker. And the Berbers are also often French-speaking, so are we going to put the term in French? Monsieur Patillo (talk) 23:47, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

• Not include of course. There is no justification for including Arabic, as it is not a Berber language, even if it was used during Amazigh reigns while the region was under Arab colonization and afterward (a situation similar to the use of Turkish during the Ottoman period).

P.S. I believe Amazigh written in the Arabic script should be included. Lord Ruffy98 (talk) 22:49, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

As just a small justification from a massive body of justifications, here's an article (WP:reliable sources cited therein) about a seminal work in Arabic by a Masmuda Berber man named Ibn Tumart, spiritual leader of a movement that would go on to establish the Almohad Caliphate led by the Mu'minids, a major Zenata Berber dynasty. إيان (talk) 23:07, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

WP:OR and WP:USEPRIMARY. Berber written in Arabic in the Middle Ages is a different thing from Arabic. The same goes for Persian/Turkish written in Arabic characters but it is no longer so.

Moreover, this Arabic script has never imposed itself (see Berber Encyclopedia, article Writing). Monsieur Patillo (talk) 23:12, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

I don't believe This is about whether Berbers use Arabic or not. It's about its inclusion in the ethnic naming section of the infobox. While Arabic has been and is used among Berbers, it is not their ethnic language. In my view, only Berber languages utilizing the Arabic script should be included, with Arabic itself mentioned in the spoken languages section. As is the case for almost most articles about ethnicities in Arab-speaking countries. TahaKahi (talk) 23:13, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

Respectfully, "not their ethnic language" is a meaningless statement. More precisely, this is a written medium so it's the script that's at issue. Comparing to other articles is not a good idea, given that contexts differ, but even so the Arabic script or its variants are present in the same way in many ethnicity or human group articles for the region: Kurds, Persians, Nubians, Armenians in Lebanon, Uzbeks (all of whom speak non-Arabic languages and in some cases also have other historic or contemporary scripts at their disposal), and so on. Since the Arabic script has been used by all the peoples of the region for centuries and still is, the only argument for excluding it is a purely political one, which raises WP:NPOV concerns. R Prazeres (talk) 23:30, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

I believe I didn’t phrase my response properly. You’re presenting articles that use ethnic language written in Arabic script, not Arabic itself. However, in the case of the article "Berbers" it uses the Arabic language itself, not the Amazigh language written in Arabic script. TahaKahi (talk) 23:34, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

Apples and oranges: unlike Berber, those are not Arabic words. M.Bitton (talk) 23:41, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

R.Prazeres Berber encyclopedia state :[1]Il y a donc bien eu, au Moyen Âge, une dynamique d’appropriation de l’écriture arabe par les Berbères, comparable à celle qui s’est produite dans les domaines turc et iranien en Asie mineure et centrale. Mais ce processus n’a manifestement pas abouti : nulle part ne s’est constituée une véritable tradition écrite du berbère en caractères arabes, stabilisée et socialement significative. Et l’essentiel de ce patrimoine scripturaire en alphabet arabe a disparu avec les formations politiques qui l’ont initié. . We must differentiate between Arabic writing and the Arabic language. Just as writing Berber in Latin is neither Latin nor French. Monsieur Patillo (talk) 00:02, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

Didn't you persistently argue that the overwhelming majority of Maghrebis are Berbers? M.Bitton (talk) 00:12, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

• Not include . The Arabic language brings nothing here, it have copied the term «barbarian» and the genealogies from the Latin, Christian and Jewish period: "Enfin et surtout, malgré leur diversité et leur originalité apparente, presque tous ces récits, que l’on peut diviser en cinq grands types, sont fondés sur des modèles juifs ou chrétiens, simplement adaptés et enrichis. [...] il introduisait surtout un éponyme fort opportunément inventé pour expliquer le terme générique forgé à leur arrivée par les Arabes (probablement à partir du latin Barbari), Berr ou Berber." as reported in the Berber encyclopedia [2] so the term «Bar-Bar» in Arabic is a simple copy/homynim of the ancient (latin) terms, « Barbari » no more and no less. Monsieur Patillo (talk) 23:06, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

  Without Arabic, the very word "Berber" wouldn't exist. M.Bitton (talk) 23:36, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

  Please avoid Wikipedia:Advocacy. Monsieur Patillo (talk) 23:41, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

  What are you on about? M.Bitton (talk) 23:42, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

  Britanica : [3] : in its infobox only gives the terms: "Self-name: Amazigh Plural: Imazighen".

  Berber Encylopedia : [4]"Amaziɣ (le/un Berbère)"

  Nothing in Arabic in the article headings or introductions. Monsieur Patillo (talk) 23:56, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

  Britannica is written in English. The French source is irrelevant (this is the English Wikipedia), it also doesn't cite neo-Tifinagh (that, for some unknown reasons, you're not complaining about). M.Bitton (talk) 00:05, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

• Include It makes no sense at all to remove Arabic, especially considering that "Berber" is itself an Arabic word. Moreover, the vast majority of Berbers speak Arabic, which serves as the lingua franca for communication among the various Berber groups (who speak mutually unintelligible languages). Skitash (talk) 00:27, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

:Not include - I've been asked to offer my two cents on the discussion; I will say that other ethnoreligious groups from the Middle East, such as Kurds and Assyrians, don't have Arabic listed as one of their languages, since they come from countries with different official languages. Groups such as Mandaeans, Nubians, and Turkmen have specific dialects of Arabic listed due to their region of origin, but they mention their original language as well. My thoughts are to not include Arabic as a whole, but consider having specific dialects of Arabic native to areas where indigenous Amazigh land lie, like Algeria and Morocco. Otherwise, not include. Surayeproject3 (talk) 01:07, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

@Surayeproject3: can you clarify what you mean by "I've been asked"? Where or by whom?R Prazeres (talk) 01:25, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

[Sidebar discussion moved to § Canvassing inquiry in the § Discussion section below. Survey continues in this section...]

Discussion

Let's clarify what this Rfc is about

This Rfc is entitled, "RfC on Infobox languages". Let's clarify what this Rfc is about, for those who may be pinged here by Yapperbot (as I was) and may not be familiar with the topic. There is no such thing as Template:Infobox languages. There *is* a Template:Infobox language, but this Rfc is not about that. In fact, this Rfc is about Template:Infobox ethnic group, and the proper use of parameter |languages= in that template. You can find that parameter described in the Table at Template:Infobox ethnic group#Parameters, fourth row from the bottom.

The Rfc question at the top of this section reads, "Should the Infobox include Arabic with the ethnic languages... or exclude it?" What that sentence means, in other words, is this:

"Should the Languages section of the Infobox in this article include Arabic in the list, or exclude it?"

In technical terms, this question is equivalent to this:

"Should parameter |languages= found in template {{Infobox ethnic group}} in the article include Arabic in the parameter value, or exclude it?"

TahaKahi, I am doing a bit of mind-reading here, in an attempt to explain to others what you meant. If this is not what you meant, then you had better explain, and/or reword the Rfc question, as if I misunderstood you, then it is likely others will as well. So, please confirm, or correct my understanding. (edit conflict × 2) Mathglot (talk) 01:59, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

Canvassing inquiry

@Surayeproject3, M.Bitton, R Prazeres, and إيان:, the inquiry into possible canvassing above is appropriate, but it is ballooning the § Survey section, and would make more sense here. If there is no objection from anyone, I will refactor by moving that part of the discussion here, starting with the comment of 01:25, 20 November 2024 and those that follow up on it. Thanks, Mathglot (talk) 02:48, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

Moved from § Survey

 – section above

@Surayeproject3: can you clarify what you mean by "I've been asked"? Where or by whom?R Prazeres (talk) 01:25, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

@Surayeproject3: thank you for your honesty. Would you mind me asking who asked you and how? M.Bitton (talk) 01:25, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

@M.Bitton @R Prazeres My apologies for the confusion, I didn't mean to say I was asked to weigh in on the Wikipedia discussion, but rather something more personal. I've been very busy outside of Wikipedia with other projects and school, so my concentration is not the best. Once again, my apologies for the confusion. Surayeproject3 (talk) 01:51, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

@Surayeproject3: you did say I've been asked to offer my two cents on the discussion.

I'm sorry to insist, but I need to ask this: are you in contact with anyone who is involved in this RfC? M.Bitton (talk) 02:03, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

@R Prazeres @M.Bitton I primarily edit Assyrian-related articles, and I've come across the page for Amazigh in the past since I look into non-Arab SWANA groups on Wikipedia as well. In my experience, Assyrian articles have a problem regarding identity debates within the community that have caused vandalism and have flooded the talk page, and I've been looking at other groups (Maronites, Mandaeans, etc.) to see if they have similar issues on their pages. I saw the RfC and wanted to weigh in my thoughts, but I'm not currently in contact with anyone from the RfC itself. Surayeproject3 (talk) 02:07, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

@Surayeproject3: here's what you said:

• I've been asked to offer my two cents on the discussion.
• I didn't mean to say I was asked to weigh in on the Wikipedia discussion, but rather something more personal

So who asked you the rather something more personal? M.Bitton (talk) 02:11, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

I think it's not necessary to keep insisting on this, but remind all editors of policy just in case. R Prazeres (talk) 02:16, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

I have to insist because the answers don't add up. If there is canvassing (which I have every reason to suspect), then we need to know who did it. M.Bitton (talk) 02:18, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

Can you explain what you mean by I didn't mean to say I was asked to weigh in on the Wikipedia discussion, but rather something more personal? I don't really understand. إيان (talk) 02:11, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

Ok, I will start by saying that contrary to my previous comments, I was asked to take part in the conversation by a user here through a private message from my page, and I sincerely apologize for not being truthful with my previous statements. @TahaKai sent me a message suggesting that I would be good for the conversation based on my previous work on Assyrian articles, since we have historically faced Arabization and they felt that my input would be appropriate. Although it wasn't sent to my talk page, and instead by email, they had only sent me one message and I hadn't edited any articles related to Amazigh at all. This falls under the "Appropriate notification" section of the user guidelines for Canvassing, but falls under the "Inappropriate section" as "Stealth canvassing".

The reason I lied was because I hadn't been aware of the user guidelines for canvassing, or that it was a thing in the first place, and I thought that I had done something that was very inappropriate for the conduct of Wikipedia. While it is true that I was asked to weigh in on something personal, it falls outside of the scope of Wikipedia and is not related to the discussion above. My other statement is also true that I've come across the Amazigh page numerous times before, since I frequent non-Arab SWANA group pages on Wikipedia.

Once again, I would like to sincerely apologize to all editors involved for my conduct and lack of truthfulness. If fitting, please remove my first comment from the discussion on the RfC, and I promise to be more careful in the future. Surayeproject3 (talk) 03:06, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

Surayeproject3, thank you for this.

TahaKahi, do you have anything to add? Aside from Surayeproject3 and myself regarding the notes under the RfC, did you reach out to anyone else with regard to this RfC, whether on Wiki or off? إيان (talk) 03:33, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

@Surayeproject3: thank you. Please feel free to strike through your !vote (once done, we'll collapse it and the replies to it). M.Bitton (talk) 03:52, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

@M.Bitton Can you tell me how I can strike it through khon? I'm not familiar as I've never done it before Surayeproject3 (talk) 03:56, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

Surayeproject3, edit this page on the source editor, select your all the text of your ǃvote, click on the dropdown menu that says 'Paragraph' at the top, and then click 'Strikethrough' from the menu. If you try and can't figure it out, let me know and I'll do it for you. إيان (talk) 04:16, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

Surayeproject3, use the s-tag, <s> like this </s>. Mathglot (talk) 04:18, 20 November 2024 (UTC)

I've striked through my vote, hope this helps. Surayeproject3 (talk) 04:36, 20 November 2024 (UTC)